An Interview with John Gray, PhD

John Gray, PhD, is an internationally recognized relationship expert and author of the New York Times bestseller Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus: The Classic Guide to Understanding the Opposite Sex.

For more than thirty-five years, Gray has been coaching on relationship and gender dynamics, and often appears on popular television shows, including Oprah, Good Morning America, The CBS Morning Show, Live with Regis, Larry King Live, and CNN and Company.

Well Being Journal welcomed John Gray to explore the role of nutrition in hormonal health, and strategies to foster optimal communication and lasting connections.  

Karina Gordin (KG): Thank you for joining Well Being Journal. Please share the inspiration behind your seminal work, Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus, and what led you to specialize in relationship and gender psychology.  

John Gray (JG): Having grown up in a family of six boys and then living as a celibate monk for nine years while working for the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, I developed a firm understanding of male psychology. When I eventually started dating, women seemed as if they truly were from another planet. I had no idea why they were responding and reacting the way they did. That led me to study psychology, love, and relationships, and eventually I became a marriage counselor.  

After listening to women eight hours per day, I began to see different patterns where they were misunderstanding men. When there was better communication and understanding, they wouldn’t be as upset or mistrusting. At the same time, I saw over and over how men didn’t fully understand what can help a woman feel happier in a relationship. Often, men prioritized work and what they could provide, so logically they couldn’t understand their partners wanting more. 

Emotional Fulfillment

By teaching men about the importance of emotional fulfillment, they could make small tweaks in their behavior and communication approach. As a result, I was seeing tremendous growth and benefits for the couples I was counseling. 

KG: What changes have you observed since writing the book thirty years ago?

JG: It’s not so much that men and women have changed, but rather the culture and lifestyle. Ways of thinking and reacting are fundamentally the same but when you’re living in a different context—women being more independent and self-reliant—relationship dynamics understandably change. 

I address the new challenges in my book Beyond Mars and Venus. As men and women are less confined by traditional roles of provider and homemaker—and there’s a greater emphasis on freedom and self-actualization—women don’t depend on men to the same degree, and by extension, the feeling of appreciation is not as strong.  

The fact is, when a man doesn’t feel needed, his motivation to please diminishes. Men tend to be motivated when they feel needed, or when they anticipate being appreciated. 

KG: What is the hormonal component to the relationship dynamic?

JG: Testosterone helps motivate men to serve and protect, and ultimately create a response in women that increases their estrogen levels. On average, women need ten times the estrogen than men just to be happy on a hormonal level. Today, however, men and women feel less aligned with their biology, and that affects both hormones and the relationship.

While men have different degrees of masculinity and requirements for testosterone—depending on age and body type—psychological states play an important role in hormone production. For example, when a man gets the message that he’s competent, trusted, appreciated, and valued, he tends to be cool, calm, and collected—that’s testosterone levels going up. Conversely, when a man feels disempowered, his testosterone drops and estrogen surges, leading to the fight-or-flight response and strong emotions.  

Of course, there are many factors at play, not strictly social or cultural. Research shows testosterone levels are dropping due to hormone-disrupting chemicals in our food and environment. Plastics, epoxy-lined canned food and beverages, GMOs, and pesticides can wreak havoc on reproductive hormones. In fact, one of the world’s most widely used weed killers, Atrazine, is not only disrupting but reversing sexual development in amphibians (chemical castration). 

In humans, agricultural pesticides have been shown to interfere with the production of testosterone in males and estrogen and progesterone in females. Additionally, studies are finding that processed foods—and more specifically trans fats, vegetable oils, and sugar—can affect reproductive hormones and contribute to long-term fertility issues. 

KG: Can you recommend diet and lifestyle strategies to support hormone health?

JG: As we get older, men tend to become more feminine and women more masculine, that is a natural trend. Even so, as I have become more feminine (my estrogen levels are very high) my testosterone levels are fifty percent higher than when I was a young man. I am seventy-two and I have sex nearly every day. When I was fifty, my interest in sex was waning so I started taking supplements and testosterone-enhancement herbal blends to help boost my levels naturally. They can kickstart the body and motivate you but then what do you do with all that?

I am retired but still work hard every day, I have a thriving love life, I continue providing for my family (my wife, children, and grandchildren), I feel successful for a noble reason—that is better than any testosterone-boosting supplement I can recommend. 

All that said, supplements can be helpful to supplement all those measures, especially considering the generational, population-level decline in testosterone that has been observed since about the 1970s. Medicinal herbs such as pine bark extract, ashwagandha (Withania somnifera), fenugreek (Trigonella foenum-graecum), Asian red ginseng (Panax ginseng), and forskohlii root extract have testosterone-boosting properties. 

In terms of estrogen, today’s lifestyle isn’t necessarily estrogen-friendly so women can consider supplements such as vitex agnus-castus, evening primrose oil, dong quai, boron, and B vitamins. Working with a holistic health practitioner can be helpful to determine the best nutraceutical approach. Generally, for men and women of all ages and stages of life, restful sleep, stress-reduction techniques, exercise, maintaining a healthy weight and gut health, and eating whole, organic foods and healthy fats, go a long way in balancing hormones.

I know Well Being Journal focuses on natural ways to slow aging and support overall health, and one of the best ways to ensure lasting physical, mental, emotional, social, and spiritual health is a happy relationship and keeping romance alive through the years. 

Boosting Relationships

KG: What are your recommendations for older couples interested in boosting their relationship or younger couples looking to make love last?

JG: Good communication and honoring hormonal differences are important building blocks for lasting love. For senior couples, staying sexually active is key. The kind of sex I regularly have and teach others about is called tantric sex—an ancient, meditative practice that emphasizes pleasure and a deeper connection with the partner. 

Meaningful sex is very important because it stimulates testosterone in men and estrogen in women. Sure, cooking for one another and taking time to go on a date are important but it’s the specialness of intimacy that draws couples together and keeps them together. 

Also, when you have sex with someone you love, your body produces post-orgasmic prolactin. As a bonus, it inhibits your motivation to have sex with somebody else, so it’s like the monogamy hormone that nature instilled in us. The quality of the sexual experience and satisfaction correlates with bonding, higher quality of life, and well-being.

One of the wisdoms of more traditional cultures is waiting to have sex until you’re in a committed, supportive, loving relationship. Research shows greater negative emotional outcomes (eg, regret, depression, sadness, poor self-esteem) for women engaging in frequent casual “hookups” compared to men who tend to have more positive experiences. 

Times are changing and gender roles are being redefined, and there’s no problem with that as long as fundamental principles endure, such as engaging in sex for the right reasons. So, that is part of the formula for making love last. 

Another part of the formula is honoring hormonal differences, as I alluded to earlier. Women are increasingly on their male side, so to support balanced hormone levels and a balanced relationship, they should anticipate coming home to a relationship that nurtures their female side. That’s where I come in, teaching techniques—including communication skills—to support that. 

KG: What are some simple techniques you teach for better communication?

JG: It’s important for a woman to share vulnerable feelings, and for a man to show interest and ask questions to help her open-up and talk freely. Many couples don’t realize how important that is, so it can take an experienced therapist to teach those communication skills. 

As a therapist, I get paid to listen to the female client and it’s usually fifty minutes per week, versus every day for her male companion. And if I may add, I’m not the one getting blamed. So, communication is an art—sharing emotions without eliciting defensiveness in the partner. That’s not always easy so you need a good guide. 

My father didn’t need these techniques. My mother appreciated him as the financial provider and didn’t care about sharing her vulnerable feelings with him. Today, as women are increasingly stressed, opening-up and constructively talking about what’s bothering them (eg, regrets, fears, frustrations, disappointments) can help women shift and get in touch with the part of themselves that is grateful, trusting, and happy. That is emotional intelligence. 

If we don’t know how to process the negative emotions that accompany stress, then we have trouble sourcing the positive emotions—that’s ninety percent truer for women than men. To explore that concept further, men have an easier time letting go of the problems at the end of the day. That is, if there’s nothing that can be done about the issue now, rest and deal with it tomorrow. 

For women, it can be hard to let go of the problems at the end of the day, but opening-up can be a helpful tool to work through those emotions, especially if a man learns how to be reassuring, understanding, and compassionate. 

KG: At what point can sharing feelings be perceived as complaining?

JG: That’s where emotional intelligence and learning to communicate effectively comes into play. Complaining or blaming, rather than productively sharing feelings, can destroy relationships. 

Women in unhappy relationships literally have an addiction to complaining. Thinking or talking about complaints— “oh what a victim I am”—temporarily produces estrogen so that can be comforting, but with complaining there’s rarely resolution and the comfort is short lived. So, what you’ve pointed out is a nuance that should be taken into consideration when sharing emotions in an intimate partnership. 

A complaint is a negative version of a request (a request that never works). So instead of complaining, I tell women to make a direct request. Or at the very least, complain about issues that the companion is not responsible for. 

KG: Can you share some practical communication troubleshooting tips? 

JG: One common complaint I hear from women is that they often feel their significant other isn’t interested in what they’re sharing/opening-up about. As a troubleshooting tip, the woman can train her man—what I refer to as “Venus talks”—by requesting just five minutes of his time to listen to her complaints, opinions, reflections, concerns. Eventually go to ten minutes and say, “It’ll only take a few minutes of your time so I can share my frustrations from the day and then I can let it go.” As an affirmation, go in for a hug after and thank him for listening, and he’ll start understanding you better as a woman and tweak his own behavior accordingly. 

As another tip, the man needs to get out of the habit of trying to solve the issue that the woman is sharing, or making the claim that what she went through is “no big deal.” For him, that’s fixing and solving, for the woman it can be seen as minimizing. I tell women not to take offense to that (since he thinks he’s helping) and learn to navigate that constructively by explaining that she just needs to express herself. 

Gradually over time, the “Venus talks” technique can lead to better communication. So, whenever the woman becomes upset with her partner, he’ll come to understand that she just needs the space to express herself and it’s not the time to interrupt, correct, solve. She will come to know that she can talk without him getting bored, irritated, or dismissive. On top of that, as I remind men, her estrogen will go up and she won’t get stuck focusing on all his misgivings. 

KG: Does nonverbal communication such as hugging and handholding offer the same degree of emotional support as verbal communication? 

JG: Nonsexual touch (eg, massage, handholding on a date, hugging) and an emotional sense of safety will induce the production of the “cuddle hormone” oxytocin. Hugs are excellent oxytocin producers, but you must realize that when men feel safe and not challenged, their testosterone levels will start going down. 

When there’s a problem that needs to be solved, a goal to fulfill, or the thrill of a chase, testosterone levels go up. Safety does not promote testosterone unless the man is feeling safe in the sense that he’s feeling confident and competent. 

When I give my wife a hug, my oxytocin goes up but also my testosterone because I’m aware—and this is where awareness is very important—that I’m providing a level of fulfillment for her. Even though I may not feel the need for a hug, my behavior (giving the hug) fulfills my goal to satisfy my wife. A nice hug or putting an arm around her is not only reassuring but it’s something that is meaningful for her, and in turn meaningful for me. 

Of course, no need to hug or hold hands all day, just a few seconds will help get that surge of oxytocin. Research shows that eight to ten seconds of hugging can help increase feel-good hormones such as oxytocin, serotonin, and dopamine, and help lower stress hormones. Gratitude also raises oxytocin, so being grateful for one another will help keep you together. 

Ultimately, both verbal or nonverbal communication can help the woman feel seen and heard, shift her to a greater state of gratitude, boost her coping mechanisms, and lift her mood. In other words, there’s emotional safety and the woman feels like she can depend on the man, which boosts her estrogen level. Effectively, the woman can align more with her feminine side and in turn help the man align more with his masculine side since he feels appreciated and needed (and that boosts his testosterone). 

This reminds me of a game that couples can play. Similar to “Venus talks,” the woman asks the man for five minutes of his time where she can tell him to do anything, and he’ll immediately follow through. It can be anything—from a foot rub or a glass of fresh-squeezed orange juice to asking him to put the dishes away. It’s quite profound, she’s asking, he’s responding, and it only takes five minutes to lift her mood. 

Overtime, the man will learn that doing little things has a big impact. Men may not always realize that without the guidance. In fact, they tend to value big gestures, but what helps keep the love alive are the little things—the hugs, handholding, kisses, hair stroking, compliments, the motivation to respond to little requests. 

KG: How can the man balance his own individual needs with the woman’s?

JG: In Men Are from Mars, the chapter on men taking time for themselves is one of the most popular. Male biology hasn’t changed but culture is changing men to think they’re “toxic” if they need “cave time.” But the fact is, brief time apart—and the sense of autonomy—is natural and healthy, and important for a balanced relationship. 

Time spent together boosts oxytocin but then the man needs to take a little time for himself to restore testosterone levels. A common relationship pitfall is that the woman starts feeling insecure or needy, depending on his attention, affection, interest, and warmth. In that case, I suggest that women explore their feelings and consider how they’re interpreting (or misinterpreting) the situation: the man needs alone time versus the man doesn’t need her. 

Importantly, I counsel women to not make the guy feel as if he’s the “bad guy.” The fact is, he hasn’t abandoned her or met someone else, even though she may be reacting as if he has. It’s nothing personal—men and women have different needs and the first step to precluding hurt and confusion is to recognize that. Biologically, the man needs “cave time” or “me-time” to rebuild testosterone, especially after a long day at work or even a romantic weekend.

Here are a few messages a man can say before “cave time” to help reassure his partner:  

• Other men need time for themselves too, it’s not about you. 
• I need time to decompress from work, you didn’t do anything wrong.
• I’m just taking some me-time, I’ll be back soon. 
• If you need something, I’ll make space for you.  
• Me-time is important for health, I’m not making excuses. 

“Cave time” or “me-time” can include playing basketball with the guys, meditating, reading a book, engaging in a hobby, playing golf, jogging, hitting the gym, attending a men’s group. I must add that while playing video games can be part of that “me-time,” it’s addictive and pumps up testosterone levels higher than normal, leading to a crash.

Women may unintentionally end up controlling their partners with their own insecurities and sensitivities, so I encourage women to be more mindful of their emotions. Giving him the space to recover physically and emotionally can boost passion and pave the way for a long, loving, fulfilling relationship, which you both deserve.

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