An Interview with Ravi Ravindra

Ravi Ravindra, PhD, is professor emeritus of comparative religion and physics at Dalhousie University, Nova Scotia, and author of a new translation of an incisive commentary on the classic text the Bhagavad Gita.

Scott E. Miners: Ravi, thank you for taking the time for this interview for Well Being Journal readers. 

Ravi Ravindra: You are welcome!

SM: As you know, seemingly everyone naturally wants happiness/strives for happiness. Society has its anxieties, and many of us do much rushing about going after things thinking they will be the source of happiness. We could be healthier in body, mind, and spirit, and at least as individuals live the peace we want. How can a centuries-old text such as the Bhagavad Gita help you me or anyone else to know more peace and happiness?

RR: That’s a very good question. I think I need to make two points to begin with, which initially may seem not directly related to your question, but they are really part of the background of the Bhagavad Gita, and probably of any scripture. First of all, we all need to be nourished by the right food. We understand this in terms of the body being supported by the right food, but we forget that there are other kinds of food. If I use the word food, meaning something that nourishes me, without which I cannot live, then one would easily see that breath is food. Even more significantly what I want to emphasize is that impressions are food.

Let us say, for example, that I look at a piece of art such as the Pieta, by Michelangelo, and I could even say that I am very moved by it. Then does it have any effect that remains? As I see it, every impression we receive changes our body at a cellular level. Clearly, strong impressions leave a larger impact.

Much of the study that has been done in this area is with negative impressions, such as in the concentration camps where somebody’s hair could turn gray within one hour. Or, if someone were to come here with a gun, my digestion and my breathing would change. The research that has been done is mostly with terrible impressions like this.

However, it is equally true that good impressions have beneficial results. The reason I’m saying this is that all the great sages have said many things very close to each other, and one of the things they have said is that while being aware of our breathing we need to wonder repeatedly who we are. 

Did I create this body or this breathing apparatus or the air I need to breathe? If I can actually become more aware of this mystery then my whole feeling changes. I can wonder at the subtle mystery: do I breathe or am I being breathed?

SM: Isn’t this taking us to the realm of a unified field, or the one essence of the universe that, even though it’s unseen, it’s preeminent over matter?

RR: Yes, and the reason I am giving this as a bit of a background of the Bhagavad Gita is that Krishna very much emphasizes that if I can become aware of the obvious fact that I did not create myself, then I would wonder about the nature and intelligence of the very high and large forces creating and running the cosmos. For example, Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita, “Everything that exists is a combination of the field, and the knower of the field, and I am the knower of the field in all fields.”

This is to say that Krishna is in everything and everybody. Now, if I can be a little bit aware of this, then I have to do my part, just as Arjuna in the Gita has to do his part, even when he sees in the great form of Krishna that the warriors he is supposed to fight have already been killed; Arjuna still has to play his part.

SM: For those who are not familiar with the Gita, Krishna, and Arjuna, is this where we need to look at a metaphorical meaning behind the terms Krishna, Arjuna, and Warrior?

RR: Yes. Arjuna is a great and legendary warrior. When the Bhagavad Gita opens Arjuna is having a crisis of conscience as he faces conflicting responsibilities. Whenever we have a choice of a serious kind, it is a minor crisis. As an example, a CEO of a company may discover that his company is producing something harmful to the planet. The CEO is responsible for the company profits and the shareholders’ dividends, but also for the planet. This can lead to a crisis for the CEO.

Arjuna’s crisis is that on the battlefield he is supposed to fight the very people who have been his uncle’s teachers or cousins. Quite rightly, he asserts that this is against the family’s responsibility. Krishna then points out to him that he also has a responsibility to fight for justice, as well as for other causes of which he can become aware only if his consciousness is transformed.   

The whole of the Bhagavad Gita is a dialogue between Krishna and Arjuna. Arjuna, an acclaimed warrior, submits to Krishna, who gradually reveals himself as the incarnation of the Highest Divinity. As Arjuna asks questions and Krishna responds, Arjuna is transformed. All the great sages have said in one way or another, “If we remain the way we are, we cannot come to the truth.” You see this in the Gospel of John. Nicodemus comes to Christ, and asks, “How may I enter the kingdom of heaven?” Christ says, “You have to be born again, born from the Spirit, born from Above.” This is true in every spiritual teaching. 

On the other hand, each person has a part to play. The reason I’m giving all this background is because you mentioned at the start that people feel anxious, they don’t feel peaceful—all that is true until I can begin to be more and more aware that I am not running the whole universe. There are subtler levels of reality, far subtler than my mind.

For example, in the Bible, there are nine orders of angels between human beings and God. These are all levels of spirituality. The domain of spirituality is very large. No one needs to imagine that they can jump to the highest level, to the top of Mt. Everest. First of all, we need to learn how to climb the small hills.

So, in the Bhagavad Gita, there is a constant reminder that you need to do your part, and at the same time to be mindful that you are not running the whole world. We do not need to get so attached to the notion that “I am doing this, therefore I should gain that” or “This is my desire, and this should be fulfilled.” Of course, I need to do my part, and also need to make room for Krishna to do his part. In fact, the very last shloka in the Gita says that when there is the skillful warrior Arjuna as well as Krishna, the Lord of Yoga, then there is victory and prosperity.

So, it’s not that I stop doing my part; but if I keep imagining that everything will go according to my design, that will inevitably lead to disappointment and unhappiness.

SM: So, there’s a larger picture. When Arjuna has his crisis of conscience in the Gita, where he is challenged to make a decision about fighting his relatives, this is a metaphor for the various kinds of challenges we all face in our lives.

RR: Yes. I’ll give you an example from the life of the Buddha. As the Buddha is sitting in meditation under the Bodhi tree, he is tested by the Devil, which the Buddhists call Mara. Mara tempts the Buddha with promises of wealth, power, and sex and then challenges him with threats of death, but the Buddha does not give up his undertaking to seek the truth in depth. After these tests, the Buddha realizes that Mara is a part and parcel of himself.

The same is true of Arjuna. All the relatives of his are parts of himself. That is where our struggle is, although we are always trying to fight something outside of ourselves. Arjuna’s conflict is a struggle with himself. Although he is a well-known warrior, a legendary warrior, accustomed to fighting against others, Krishna points out that the real battle is the battle within. For this, he needs to know the different levels of reality within himself. 

The levels are not only outside myself; they are also inside and we need to find a connection with the deeper and subtler levels. St. Paul in the New Testament remarks that the eyes of the flesh see the things of the flesh, and the eyes of the spirit the things of the spirit. So, the spiritual teaching or training or transformation is about how the eyes of the flesh can yield to the eyes of the spirit.

Yoga is a science of transformation. The purpose of the scriptures and sages is to assist us in engaging in an inner transformation so that I can be more and more aware that I need to open the eyes of the spirit in order to see the things of the spirit.

SM: That’s beautiful. I might be projecting these parts of myself, say anger, pride, or dejection, onto others, fight with them, and then someday realize these were parts of myself?

RR: That is true. In fact, you can read the writings of any of the serious teachers associated with any religion; they all point out that one of the things one discovers in self-knowledge, or more and more clear self-observation, is that others are essentially mirrors for me. In fact, we have a very insightful remark from Rumi: “If you have not yet seen the Devil, go look in the mirror.”

SM: Or, if you haven’t seen Mara, look in the mirror?

RR: Yes. The Buddha made perhaps a more comforting comment when he said, “In this very body, you can discover all the demons and all the gods.” But it’s natural for us to project internally, “I am god-like and the good one and other people are the devils.” Then we can take this to the national level. Other countries are bad, trying to take advantage of us; or on the religious level, that my religion alone can take us to heaven and not others. It is a common human tendency to think that others are not as good as I am, and therefore I need to fight some of them.

SM: So, the Gita is instructing how to know oneself so deeply that we realize it’s our responsibility to be the peaceful, loving, compassionate person that we want everyone else to be.

RR: That is right. And the other thing they gain from the Bhagavad Gita, and this is deep-seated in the whole of Indian tradition, is the invitation from Krishna to Arjuna, and therefore to everybody, to become related to his mode of being, meaning to be exactly like Krishna. This is very important in the Indian tradition, that deep down, our deepest self is identically the same as the highest God. If you want to use the Sanskrit words, Atma is identically the same as Brahman.

SM: Will you say more? What do those terms mean in English?

RR: Brahman is the term that is used to refer to the very highest reality or the highest divinity. Literally, the word Brahman means, “The Vastness,” not only in space but also in time. In fact, Annie Besant, in her translation of the Bhagavad Gita, translates Brahman as “The Eternal.” Vastness, both in time and space, is the literal meaning of the word Brahman. The main idea is that almost nothing can be said about Brahman because every description brings a limitation. In fact, one of the great Upanishads speaks of every description as “neti, neti,” or “not this, not this.” Brahman is beyond description, but it is the highest reality from which everything emerges. 

The Bible says, “God created the world.” India doesn’t have a creation myth; what they have is an emanation myth. Brahman did not create the world; Brahman became the world. Everything has Brahman in it. As Krishna said, “Everything is a combination of the field and the knower of the field, and I am the knower of the field in all fields.” This is a very deep idea in the Indian tradition. Everything is Brahman, but It is manifesting at different levels of awareness and materiality.

The deepest level in a human being, Atma—which can simply be translated as spirit even though no translation is completely exact—is identically the same as Brahman. We have a similar enunciation of Christ when he said, “My Father and I are one.” Although in the Biblical tradition, this is considered blasphemy, in India this statement would be regarded as the mark of a great sage. Anyone can use the words, but that doesn’t make someone a sage. A sage actually lives according to this realization. Krishna is inviting everyone to come to him and uses the word Madbhava to speak of his level or quality of being which he calls Arjuna to come to. 

SM: And that’s an invitation to everyone.

RR: Yes, an invitation to everyone. However, this is not an easy task. Thousands of people are doing physics, but not everyone becomes Einstein; thousands are doing sculpture, but not everyone becomes Leonardo da Vinci. But that is the call, and birth after birth I can gradually move toward it. The Christ also said, “Many are called but few are chosen.”

SM: Aren’t we all a bit lazy at times in our focus in terms of being as peaceful as the deepest level within us? What discipline does the Gita advise?

RR: The word discipline is a very good one, because yoga is sometimes translated as discipline for it is a path or a way to exactly what you are asking. The Bhagavad Gita is a classic of yoga. It teaches many different kinds of yoga. The main yoga Krishna teaches in it is buddhi yoga, which is the yoga of awareness—becoming more and more aware of what is going on inside you, and what is taking place outside you.

Then there are several yogas, such as karma yoga, or the yoga of sacred action; jñana yoga, or the yoga of sacred knowledge; dhyana yoga, which is the yoga of meditation; and bhakti yoga, or the yoga of dedication, adoration, worship, and love. Krishna speaks of various kinds of yoga, and he also has many ways of describing or defining yoga. For example, he says “Yoga is skill in action.” Clearly, Krishna is not against action. In fact, the first renunciation he calls for is the renunciation of inaction. 

Any action that is undertaken requires some skill. Krishna also says yoga is equanimity in the presence of whether your action fails or succeeds. Can I remain calm about the success or failure of the action I’m taking? That’s yoga! There are more descriptions of yoga in the Bhagavad Gita. For example, “Yoga is breaking the bond with suffering.” Another: “A yogi sees the Self in everyone and everyone in the Self.” As I said earlier, the Self is God; so, a yogi sees God in everyone and everyone in God. Also, a yogi becomes an instrument of God and sees that “I do nothing at all.”

This is a remark that is very close to that of Christ in the Gospel of John. As you know I’ve been a student of the Gospels as well, and I’ve written books on them. This is what Christ said: “I am not the author of the words I say; I do nothing on my own. I simply say what my Father in heaven tells me to say.” So, you see, that’s a kind of yoga. Can I be so attuned with the cosmic forces, or, if you like, with Krishna, that the action is being done through me, but I’m not doing it?

I’m sure every great artist and scientist occasionally finds this to be true. You could read through scientific literature and find examples of many scientists saying, “I had just gone for a walk, and somehow it came to me.” Poets also say things like this. So, in a way everybody who has ever created anything at all sooner or later realizes, that although they need to do their part, something comes to them when they are able to allow a subtler energy to act through them. So, when looking at yoga we are really talking about the discipline of skillful action as well as the state of actionlessness.

SM: That’s lovely. Perhaps this question is similar. Someone might ask, “How is the Gita practical for today?” But, perhaps it is a most practical approach. I might wonder how I might fulfill my desires, such as getting the house I want, or the job, or the car, or the happiness in my relationship or at work. It seems you or the Gita are saying the best way is through discipline, through yoga of some kind, through skill.

RR: Yes. And, in a way, more specifically, let’s say I wish to buy a particular house. I need to bring skillfulness in my action. That may require knowing how to negotiate with someone, how to make the appropriate amount of money, and whatever skill is required for that action. However, Krishna would insist that this is your part, but you are not running the whole universe. So, he asks, can you also become aware that there are other very large forces at play, and, if you can internally be willing to accept that, submit to them, then you don’t get so attached to whether or not your action succeeds.

You don’t say, “I must get the house or I will commit suicide, or kill the agent, or otherwise be unhappy and become an alcoholic.” All those are reactions because I have concluded that everything is decided by me. Krishna is not against you getting a house or you conquering something, but he is rather repeatedly reminding you that you are not running the whole universe. It’s totally obvious if one can only realize that.

SM: Does the Gita speak about the idea of aligning your own feelings with the desires you have before taking action?

RR: Yes. There is a very strong emphasis that if I begin to look more deeply inside myself, I will see that many of my desires on the surface are contradictory. For example, I wish to be compassionate toward others, but I am also self-occupied and want to gain things for myself. Therefore, if I can begin to listen more and more to the deeper part of myself, then I become a little freer of my surface desires. Most of our conflicts and difficulties arise from our surface desires.

The word desire can refer to desire at the surface but there is also a desire for Nirvana, or bliss; there is a desire for serving God, and for being compassionate to other human beings. One can think that such desires are at the same level as a desire for a nice house, but they are not at the same level. 

This doesn’t mean that one has to be against the surface desires, but one can gradually begin to see that if my deeper desires are going to be met, that will require more and more freedom from my surface desires. The surface desires are often contradicted by the desires of others, resulting in conflict, but the deeper desires are usually not contradicted.

SM: That’s a very good point.

RR: Krishna is not against desire. He is more interested in drawing our attention to the fact that we are not what we think we are.

SM: That there’s more to you than the surface desires or surface self?

RR: Yes, the deeper self is there; ultimately, he says, “You are Krishna.” At least a dozen times he says, “I am seated in the heart of everyone and in the body of everyone.” In fact, let me quote directly from the 17th chapter where Krishna says, “Those who undertake severe austerities torture not only their own body, they torture me who is seated in their body.” So, Krishna is saying that he is seated in our heart, he is seated in our mind and he is seated in our body, but, in general, because we are not aware of it, we focus on the surface of things.

SM: The knowledge that this deeper reality is seated within me takes me to the deeper desires. From there creativity becomes enhanced, correct?

RR: Well if you look at the example of a very great scientist like Einstein, or at a great artist such as Michelangelo, or a great poet such as Dante as examples of creators—we would hardly doubt that they are very creative. What is it that they actually accomplished? When they are able to express something in harmony with the cosmological laws, or a beauty that is not created by human beings, but reflects the divine beauty, and these are the expressions these people themselves used. They would say that somehow the cosmic law, or order, or beauty manifested through their work.

So, the crucial question is, “What am I doing? Am I expressing my superficial self or am I wishing to express what my deepest self can receive and express?” Anybody can stand up and say, “I’m very creative,” but I keep reminding people that there are thousands of artists, but not everyone is going to be Michelangelo; there are hundreds of thousands of physicists, but not everyone is going to be Einstein.

This kind of creativity requires a harmonization with deeper truths, or, with a deeper self, which is ultimately in the direction of becoming one with Krishna. But to actually become one with the highest level is quite rare. Very few people in history come to that; maybe the Buddha, the Christ, perhaps a few others.

SM: For deeper creativity you need discernment with what you are thinking, saying, and doing.

RR: Right. You have to be aware of the level it comes from. I was very struck by a practice at the Institute of Advanced Study in Princeton. Freeman Dyson had invited me to be there. We would often spend a little time in the office considering a problem, but we spent much more time walking in the woods to receive something, rather than to impose our ideas on something. It was very striking to me that many scientists there were walking around in the woods; not always doing something, sometimes they would try to listen for something.

SM: There’s a story that Albert Einstein when faced with a problem he was trying to solve would put his head on his desk to sleep, but he held a pencil in his hand. He knew that he might get an answer while entering the sleep state, but when the pencil fell it would awaken him, and then he would focus on the insight that might have come as his brain slept for a few seconds.

RR: It’s hard to say if some of these stories are true, but metaphorically they are almost certainly true. The main point is that we need to do our part, but we also need to let Krishna do his part, or, we can say if you like, let God do his part. Otherwise, I might be trying to run the whole universe myself.

SM: This seems to be something that calls for a kind of surrender, since to try to control everything is impossible. 

RR: Yes. Gradually then one’s heart becomes a little bit more peaceful. I just need to do my part, and whether I succeed or fail is not up to me. I’ve just written a new translation of the Bhagavad Gita with a commentary. Some people will say it’s wonderful and others will say that it is terrible.

But if I get so attached to these comments, it is as if I am thinking everybody should like what I do and my happiness depends on others’ views. That can take place at the surface, but deep down I need to just allow the possibility that if there is anything true in what I have written, it is not I who created it; it was created through me.

SM: Therefore, you need not be attached to the outcome.

RR: Yes, or to praise or blame! Krishna says: A yogi is indifferent to either praise or criticism.

SM: Your ego takes credit for something that involves praise when in fact all the credit goes to God or Krishna?

RR: That’s right; I think that’s what Krishna would say. There are many levels of reality and these levels are not only outside myself but they are also within me. Generally speaking, in the world these days, we think God is outside, but if I begin to realize that these levels are also within me, then one will see the need to go more and more deeply inside, which is really the purpose of meditation which is another yoga.

SM: This reminds me that researchers have found that the heart has a larger field than even the brain and that by establishing heart-brain coherence between the fields with breathing, and a meditation on something such as gratitude, one achieves a state of more clarity. Does the Gita speak to anything like this?

RR: Yes, very much so. In Indian philosophy, the heart and mind are coupled together; they are not separate. In Sanskrit, the lower kind of mind is called manas and it also includes the lower kinds of emotions such as worry, jealousy, anger, and competition. The higher mind is called Buddhi, but it also includes higher feelings, such as gratitude, compassion, and wonder.

Every serious creator actually finds himself not only expressing gratitude but also a sense of wonder. They are surprised at the outcome of their work. Each one of them would say that they work from a state of unknowing. It’s not that they know nothing but none of the great creative people have ever said that they know everything. When they create they become the instrument of Krishna’s creativity.

In the Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna becomes the instrument of Krishna. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t have to be skillful. In fact, one of the most important verses in the Bhagavad Gita is relevant here: “Offering all your actions to me, but being mindful of your deepest self, without expectation, without self-occupation, struggle without agitation.” This quote from the third chapter also appears at the front of my book.

SM: And the Sanskrit term for the deepest self is Atma?

RR: Yes.

SM: So, in English could you say the deepest self is the soul and you can live as a soul in your body?

RR: Well, there is a bit of a difficulty in the English language. If you use the terminology you find in the New Testament, there is a difference between the soul and spirit, and we can say that my soul can come closer and closer to the spirit; otherwise, my soul can be occupied exclusively with material things and move away from the spirit. The word soul comes from the Greek word psyche (psyche). Thus, my psyche can become completely self-occupied, or it can come closer and closer to the spirit or God. 

After the sixteenth century, largely owing to the work of Descartes, spirit, and soul were no longer seen as separate. Since then soul has been more or less equated with the spirit. In the New Testament, these are two different words. Spirit is pneuma in Greek; Soul is pseuche. It is worth quoting the great philosopher Plotinus here: “Our psyche (soul) is amphibious in nature. It can sink completely into the matter or it can soar into the One.”

SM: Beautiful. Does the Gita address the issue of consciousness of the soul after death of the physical body?

RR: Yes, very much so. The Bhagavad Gita very much emphasizes the whole idea of reincarnation. In fact, it is almost the classical text of reincarnation. Krishna says, “Everybody who is born will die, and everybody who dies will be born again…. What is real never dies.” What is real is ultimately the Atma or the Brahman within me that doesn’t die. A part of that imperishable Spirit comes into a body as a soul. When the body dies, the soul finds another body to be incarnated in. In contemporary English usage spirit and soul are so merged together that people don’t quite understand the distinction between them.

The soul is personal or individual; the spirit is transpersonal; it could be said to be God. What is real never dies or takes birth; it is eternally there. But the individual part, the soul, will leave the body and will take another birth until it can gradually come closer and closer to the spirit. That’s the idea of reincarnation: unless you become connected to a subtler or higher level of consciousness, you will keep repeating yourself at the same level again and again.

SM: But, even as we learn, and come closer and closer to having the spirit here in our bodies, while we are still in human bodies we are like Arjuna: we are still faced with conflict.

RR: Yes, and struggle. Life is full of struggle. There is no question about that, but then the whole idea of yoga, or the discipline that Krishna is teaching, is to be aware of how I can be engaged in the struggle, yet at the same time remain above the struggle. 

SM: That is an open question for everyone.

RR: This is really the beauty of yoga. If I begin to practice yoga I can begin to see the levels within myself that remain quite untouched by the struggles and arguments, failures or successes. I have engaged in the struggle but I also begin to see that part of myself that is quite above the struggle!

SM: So, it’s quite important to see which part of yourself you identify as the one you want to be.

RR: This becomes the central question: “What am I.” Am I just the body or mind that is arguing, winning, losing, gaining, getting upset, unhappy; or am I something else also? One doesn’t have to be against the body or mind, but what are they serving? Am I occupied with the pleasures of the body and the mind and the desires?

Do I feel that the more pleasures I have the happier I will be But then I will want more, and if I don’t get them then I will be unhappy. This is nothing against the body or the feeling but we need to ask if they are serving something which is in the body but not of the body. The spirit and soul are in the body and mind but they are not of the body and mind.

SM: Ravi, I think this may be a wonderful place to end this interview unless you would like to make a closing comment.

RR: No need to continue now; I have written a detailed commentary on the Bhagavad Gita. 

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For more see The Bhagavad Gita: A Guide To Navigating the Battle of Life, a new translation and commentary by Ravi Ravindra, Shambhala Publications, Inc., 2017; http://www.shambhala.com or wherever quality books are sold.